Terri Schiavo - again

[Cheryllynn]

Things I learned yesterday about Terri.

Terri has never had an MRI or PET to assist in Persistent Vegetative State dx (PVS). Her husband Michael as refused the request the get one.

For PVS to be a dx, the patient should not show any response or interaction with others. Terri has clearly shown responses to her parents and to stimuli.

Terri has NOT had the best of care, nor much care at all since 1992. Her noted dental decay and bedsores indicate she is actually be ignored - again her husband controls the type of care Terri gets.

Doctors have suggested that Terri might benefit from physical therapy - Husband Michael has refused this.

National Review has an article this week regarding 3/18/05's date of removal of Terris' feeding tube here

It was also suggested on Hugh Hewitt's radio program last night that Terri might be able to swallow on her own, but Michael has refused Terri being fed by spoon. Some doctors, according to the article posted claim that spoon feeding is extraordinary medical care and should not be rendered if the patient does not want extraordinary care.

According to my step-father doctor, feeding tube and IV for liquids can be considered extraordinary care, and as such, can be denied to patients whose guardian says No.

And Terri has a website: www.terrisfight.org

[Julester]

So I guess than means that we say screw the para and quadraplegics too! UGH!! This is just sick! So the rules are if you can't pick up a spoon and actually feed yourself.....bye bye you are dead and not worth saving! Nice society.....nice society!

It is clear that Terri's husband is out to end this woman's life. He is a disgrace.

Julie

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by Julester
/snip/
So I guess than means that we say screw the para and quadraplegics too! UGH!! This is just sick! So the rules are if you can't pick up a spoon and actually feed yourself.....bye bye you are dead and not worth saving!
/snip/

No... that's certainly NOT what "the rules are".
That type of statement takes the argument to a level beyond which any reasonable person would, don't you agree?

Additionally, Florida lawmakers are making moves to
pass a bill that would block the withholding of food and water of patients in a vegetative state when the patient did not leave specific instructions refusing artificial measures. Such a bill would cover Terri Schiavo's case and block the judge's order to remove her feeding tube on 18March2005.

[Julester]

Sorry Grizz to upset you.....but I was just making a STRONG point. To me the whole issue is UNREASONABLE.

I certainly do hope that the FLA legislators doing something. Just another lesson for people that they should have established a living will.

Julie

[Cheryllynn]

Additionally, Florida lawmakers are making moves to pass a bill that would block the withholding of food and water of patients in a vegetative state when the patient did not leave specific instructions refusing artificial measures

The main argument the parents have with Terri is that she was misdiagnosed as Persistent Vegetative State and the husband refuses to have her re-examined and the judge refuses to order a re-examination.

People with PVS are not supposed to be responsive to other people. Terri is most definately responsive.

I think Terri is not ina PVS state and therefore should not be taken off the feeding tube.

The parents are going through legislature because the judge refuses to order any test of Terri or seek out another opinion on her physical state.

[LisaN]

I worked in a sub acute head injury rehab for years---in the occupational therapy dept. and as a social worker. Many familes were wonderfully supportive and appropriately aggressive in pursuing services----but there were some cases that just broke my heart. Family members that didn't visit for years, husbands who brought their girlfriends to visit their wives who were head injured but cognizant . . .

I admit I haven't read too much about this case---but I don't understand HOW the husband/judge are blocking a reexamination. She has to have a physican---probably a physiatrist---wouldn't he/she be able to diagnose his/her patient and write it on the medical chart? If Terri can consistently respond to commands she is not in a persistent vegetative state and her doctor should have that in her medical records---doesn't she have a doctor and medical staff? Does the judge refuse to look at her medical records?

I guess I need to read more about this because this doesn't make sense.

Lisa

[Natalie Rose]

I think it doesn't make sense Lisa because the parents are the ones who have made this very public and you can rarely find any public statements by Michael Schiavo. All of the things that were stated by Cheryllynn may very well be true but it is only one side of the story. I have also heard that the parents had not seen Terri in over 5 years and only became involved in her life after this whole feeding tube case came to light. I don't know if that is true but that is what I read.

It doesn't make any sense that the only people who claim Terri is responsive are her parents - the doctors and the judges and Michael have all disagreed.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's only fair to hear BOTH sides of the story. Certainly I could tell you for an absolute fact that my DH has a much better understanding of what I would want if I were in a PVS (persistent vegitative state). Those of us who have living wills may be horrified at the notion that our parents are fighting to keep us alive in a way that we don't want, nor would we want our DH's names dragged through the mud as someone who is simply after insurance money. Certainly I would be very horrified if that was the case for me.

And yes I do have a living will just for this reason.

[LisaN]

Thanks NatalieRose! I see what you mean. That's interesting---I certainly remember family members who reported different responses than the medical staff. You can take it two ways----either the parents are seeing things because they are so hopeful or the person only responds to those he/she loves or remembers the most (obviously less likely). Heck, I had one patient who clearly presented as a pvs. But I SWEAR he was in there. I could see it in his eyes----so friggin sad.

Interesting to hear that the parents may not have visited her for years. Wonder what is really going on in this whole dynamic?
Lisa

[Maddy00]

I read very recently that he simply wants to follow her wishes. According to him, she would not want to live like this...at all. He was offered money (two different times at least, once for sum of 10 mil and once for sum of 1 mil) to sign over guardianship to her parents. He refused both times stating he was diong what Terri wants.

This was discussed on the GP bb too and as I said then, I'm VERY curious as to his angle on this. He has NOT gone public, people are speculating on what his motives must be (even me ).

What is motivating him? He is either the ultimate, honorable husband and has gone through this hell because he KNOWS what she would have wanted. He may have moved on and have a girlfriend, but he is loyal because he's standing up for what he believes. The flip side is that he's simply dug in his heels and at this point, although there is no (or little) money left, maybe he's hoping to sue? or take even what little cash is left for himself. Maybe he' simply doing it to spite her parents.

I don't knwo why, is just a feeling, but I think he's honoring her wishes. He has EVERY reason to let this go. He has EVERY reason to hand over guardianship to the parents, to have her re-evaluated by other doctors to prove she's not PVS and that she needs to be kept alive, no matter how poor the quality of life must seem to us. He has every reason in the world to let her parents run this and just step aside. His name has been dragged through the mud. The entire nation "knows" him and his story. Heck, the U.S. Congress is discussing him! Can you all imagine the hell his life MUST be on a daily basis?

I really feel that he's following through with her wishes and that the Terri he married is no longer "there" and he "knows" she's gone. So mentally and emotionally he has moved on and is with a new woman, but the honor and loyalty in him drive him to see it through to the end so that Terri gets her wish.

For sake of argument, what IF that is the story here? I feel very sorry for him, for Terri, and for her parents. As already stated, THIS is a prime example as to why we all need living wills.

[Natalie Rose]

I'm going with Maddy on this one. I too have read that he has been offered millions of dollars to walk away and he won't because he wants to follow through on her wishes.

She has had multiple brain scans and has no cerebrum. She is totally brain dead. What seems like "reactions" to her parents is extremely misleading - the doctors have said that those tapes are results of hundreds of hours of videotapes where the parents asked Terri over and over and over to smile and then when she did, that's what they showed the judge. They said that her actions are completely involuntary, not reactions to them.

But despite that 19 different judges have all ruled in his favor thus far.

She has had the swallow test 4 times and failed. He doesn't want her fed with a spoon because he doesn't want her to aspirate.

Maybe, just maybe, he really cares about her. Maybe it's not about money.

Honestly, why won't he divorce her? If she is already dead to him, and for all practical purposes she is as he has a whole new life with a SO and children, than why not let her "go" to her family and let them take care of her? What does he have to lose? I think it's just CRUEL of him to let her starve to death. Does her really believe years of debate, no therapy and continuing to leave her hanging is living up to his end of the agreement "that he would take care of her to the end of HIS life" when he was awarded the money. I don't.

I think this is a very valid question Kate and the answer is not "one size fits all". Is it crueler for her to starve to death (which, by the way is the way many of us will die since that is what happens when you have a disease) or to have her languish the way she is? That's a personal question. For me, I would not want to live that way which is why I have a living will. So for me, if DH walked away and left me in that condition then he would not be honoring my wishes which is NOT what we promised each other. So yes, it would be "crueler".